Chichilticale

Discuss anything related to the Lost Dutchman Mine in this form.
cuzzinjack
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Chichilticale

Postby cuzzinjack » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:57 pm

Even though the discovery of the location of the Peralta mines is very significant, there is a much bigger mystery:

After Spain looted most of the Aztec and Inca gold between 1520 and 1533, it was noted that the Aztec items were found to have a very high purity and were exceptionally beautiful. Some of the Spaniards realized the importance of this because neither the Aztecs or the Incas knew how to part gold and silver, which are typically found together in varying degrees. The high purity of the gold, some knew, was a clue to the source of the magnificent and plentiful Aztec gold, which was never found. Below is a photo of Aztec vs. Inca gold:

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The Spanish had heard plenty of stories after conquering Mexico to know that the source of the gold was north of New Spain, and Cabeza de Vaca’s story in 1536 of his 8-year journey from Florida and the tale he had heard of the “Seven cities of Cibola” located far to the north of New Spain pushed the Spaniards lust for gold to the limit.

In 1539, Viceroy Mendoza of Mexico City enlisted Father Marcos de Niza to explore the western coast of Mexico to ensure that Mexico was not an island, and to investigate the possibility of the existence of wealthy cities to the north.

Esteban, whom was with Cabeza de Vaca on the 8-year journey from Florida, accompanied Niza on this expedition. Father Niza had “rock star” status among the native people at the beginning of the trek in northern Sinaloa and Southern Sonora because he joyfully brought news that the brutal slave trader Guzman was banished by Viceroy Mendoza. Dozens, and perhaps hundreds of natives accompanied the Niza group as bearers to show their admiration.

Niza’s account of the expedition was less than stellar. Below is a modern-day piecing together of the places that that Niza/Esteban passed through on the way to Cibola as ciphered by Nallino:

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Source: http://nallino.net/marc.html

The Niza party spent little time investigating the coast after they saw it turn west on the northern end of the Gulf of California (Nallino thinks that he did not go to the coast at all), and travelled to the site of the current city of Nogales and turned to follow the north-flowing Santa Cruz River. It was here at Nogales that Esteban and Niza parted, and Esteban began his race to be the first to discover Cibola, with Niza following days and eventually even more than a week behind.

The trails along the Santa Cruz river and San Pedro (parallels the Santa Cruz) that stretched to Cibola were major trade routes well known to the local natives and beyond. As one writer put it, “Niza was not hacking it through the bush”. Niza reported occupied farming villages along the Santa Cruz about every mile.

The next site that Niza reports is Chichilticale, at the Casa Grande ruins (see above Nallino map). Other authors in the past have also concluded that Chichilticale was Casa Grande. This is Nahuatl (Aztec) meaning “red house”. The next spot he reports on his journey is Cibola only 15 days later; this is 275 miles away as the crow flies. This amounts to a serious traveling speed, about 20 miles per day. This is believable considering the other dates, but herein is the problem….. Niza, a man of God, never saw Cibola………… even though he said he did. Niza reports that he saw Cibola from a distance and it was as big as Mexico City. He said they turned back when he met the fleeing Indians that had accompanied Esteban because they described how he was killed by the Zunis.

The next year 1540, Niza becomes the guide for the Coronado expedition, about 1300 people. They travelled up the San Pedro, making a hard right near present day Tombstone. Then to Chichilticale #2 at the Kuykendall ruins at western foot of the Chiricahua Mountains and over present-day Apache Pass. It is amazing how the stage was already set in 1540 for what was to come in 400 years later! (See map below for routes of the Niza and Coronado expeditions and map of location of Chichilticale #2).

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Source: http://nallino.net/marc.html

This is a closeup of the Chichilticale #2 area:

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Coronado expressed his disappointment when seeing the Kuykendall ruins, thinking they were Chichilticale (Note: Niza had guided him there). They were very small ruins. As Nallino wrote (paraphrasing); Chichilticale must have been a well-known place, before either the Niza or Coronado expeditions. And how did it get an Aztec name?, and why was Coronado disappointed? It is important that this was the only place described on the Niza or Coronado expedition that had an Aztec name.

It was proven by an archeological dig that Coronado did indeed camp at the Kuykendall ruins with the artifacts representing what a large party would have left behind. Two of the most important items found were an iron crossbow bolt-arrowhead and a coin of that time period.

Nallino makes a good argument that there were two Chichilticale: the one that Niza puts in his report of his original expedition with the location described almost as a riddle (Casa Grande), and the second one at the Kuykendall ruins south of Wilcox that he passed by on his trip back to Mexico. After reading the information available, it appears that Niza travelled north on the Santa Cruz River, and travelled south along the north flowing but more eastern San Pedro on his return trip (so he knew where to take Coronado the next year).

When the Coronado expedition reached Cibola and its insignificance was learned, Niza became a most-hated individual and possibly the only thing that saved his life was that he was a Catholic Priest. Niza was then replaced by Father Pedro de Castaneda and he wrote that by the time Esteban reached Cibola Niza had not yet left Chichilicale, http://www.southwestcrossroads.org/record.php?num=385
and, Castaneda wrote that Niza was 60 leagues (180 miles) from Cibola when he met the fleeing natives that accompanied Esteban and that was the closest that he got to Cibola.

Niza was a respected and honored man up until Cibola was reached by the Coronado expedition. The Coronado expedition was privately funded, and some members never recovered from the debt they assumed to go on the expedition. Niza spent the rest of his life in supposed shame.
The larger question is: Why did Niza lie? He had a good reason to turn back before he reached Cibola, and no one could have blamed him for returning. Why did he concoct the tale that the Zuni pueblo was as large as Mexico City?

My theory is this: The Goldfield Arizona mining district was the source of the Aztec Gold. These are my reasons and sub-theories:

1) Gold from the supergene enrichment of gold-bearing sulphide ore deposits commonly has a purity of over 90%. The rare coincidence of brine lakes that covered the Goldfield District during and after the sulphide ore was deposited was ideal for the creation of gold chloride and the deposition of supergene gold. This type of gold was found in the modern-day Goldfield in large amounts. The pits where it was mined before 1520 were simply filled in.
2) Modern-day explorationists did not give these pit locations the time of day because the gold bearing outcrops had been removed (but the alteration zones remained).
3) Several pit locations have been found seismically, although it is not known what century the pits were from.
4) Niza had seen the horrors of the Spanish occupation and the thousands of Indians that died in slavery. He knew that the discovery of the gold deposits would result in more slavery and death. He knew that the peaceful native people he met along the Santa Cruz (Pima), would be no more.
5) It is theorized that Niza lied about the location of Chichilticale to save the Pima and others and tried to keep the Coronado expedition as far away from Superstition mountain as possible (because of its odd and possibly renowned shape). It can only be speculated what tales and clues circulated at that time, and “Chichilticale” seems to have been one of them.
6) Superstition Mountain (with the Goldfield District is at its foot) can be seen from Casa Grande ruins.
7) Niza had a week or more that was unaccounted for (the 60 leagues). It is theorized Niza went on an extended exploration and mapping trip at the Goldfield District.
8) Niza was a Franciscan, not a Jesuit. If he had been a Jesuit, there may have been an entirely different outcome. Niza may even have showed his superiors what was found, and the consensus may have been to divert attention away from the area.
9) In 1691, Father Kino, a Jesuit, recorded his first trip into Arizona. He reports visiting the Casa Grande ruins in 1694. It is theorized that because he had befriended and helped the Pima, they told him of the place where the Pima-hated Apaches had mined the gold a 150 years before. Below is a 1701 Kino map. The area held by the Apache is shown north of the Gila River. Superstition Mountain can be seen.

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10) Kino, being a Jesuit businessman, took a different tack. Rather than say anything to the Spanish government, he cut a deal with the Peralta’s. They would mine it, play it down, and give the Jesuits their cut.
11) The Apaches were never enslaved. The Peralta’s paid them off handsomely. In the end, when it was known the Peraltas were never coming back, they were slaughtered and their goods were taken.
12) It is theorized that the Goldfield District was mined well before the Spanish invasion of Mexico. At the Casa Grande museum, a “rock crusher” is on display. The Hohokam didn’t mine, but the theory is presented that the below item was taken from the nearby mines. The line across the item is a shadow. Seen up close, this item is believed to be technology that was not known to the Hohokam. It weighs an estimated 30 pounds, and would be for crushing ore, not pottery.

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13) An xrf (x-ray fluorescence) test (handheld unit) could easily prove or disprove if the my theory is true. Even though there are only a couple of handfuls of Aztec gold that remain in its original state, it does exist. An xrf of Aztec gold probably exists already.

cuzzinjack
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Re: Chichilticale

Postby cuzzinjack » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:06 pm

Dovetailing with the Chichilticale story is the Manuel Alejandro Peralta map from 1753.

Using the same map style of the Peralta-Fish and the Peralta Stone Maps, the map brings the outlier features in close to the central focus area of the map. A copy of the map with someone’s English translation is below:

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The most important link to the Chichilticale story that is presented in the map is the “footprint trail” that is labeled. Why would it state specifically that the trail was made by feet? Maybe because the natives that had made it had no horses, or wheels? The Mesoamerican trail system extended up the Santa Cruz to Chichilticale #1, up the San Pedro river, up the Gila and up to Cibola. The idea is presented here that the trail system extended from Chichilticale #1 to what is now known as the Goldfield mining district and that portions of the trail were still visible in 1753. It is theorized that Father Niza’a party hid or destroyed a part of this very-travelled trail.

Across the top of the map is the title “Gvente de Ona del Rio Salado Del Norte”. The first word is “Gvente”, an older form of a Spanish/Portuguese word that is still used in Brazil and means “esteemed people”. The third word is “Ona”, and is Latin for “district”. The rest is Spanish. The full translation would be “Esteemed People of the Salt River District of the North.”

Campo Trabajoros and Campo Trabajores are Spanish for the “men’s workers camp” and the “women’s workers camp”, respectively. Considering the separation of the men and women, the Pima revolt that swept Arizona in 1751, and the date on the map of 1753, it is apparent the Peralta’s kept mining through the Pima revolt because they were not using slaves?

In regards to the outlying features that are brought in close to the central theme of the map, the mines, it appears that it was important for Manuel Alejandro Peralta to show the year-round sources of water for the mines and workers. Campo Trabajores is Government Well, Campo Trabajoros is First Water Ranch in First Water Canyon, and the Ojo Aguila or “Eagle Spring” is Hackberry Spring. Below is a photo of the hole in the rock above Hackberry Spring taken from the middle of the oasis:

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After re-evaluating some features in the field, is it thought that the mines shown on the Manuel Alejandro Peralta map were are mixture of pits and underground mines; the underground mines are labeled with the names of the people that were in charge of developing them.

cuzzinjack

klondike
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Re: Chichilticale

Postby klondike » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:19 pm

Hello cuzzinjack

A fascinating post. If your theory is correct and it is, how did the Aztecs find the deposits? Were they in fact led to the area by artifacts they were given?

I wonder where one might look to find proof of their mining operations? Where exactly did they stay? Imagine their mining activities included contact points between two Caldera complexes in the Superstitions, and their enclave was located in a underground network close by.

If this is so perhaps Coronado was led to the same general area by artifacts in the possession of the Catholic Church. You might find it interesting to look into the naming of Coronado Mesa. If memory serves me it was named by a gentleman employed by the railroad during the period associated with Jacob Walzer, Jim Bark, and Sims Ely.

Your comments regrading the deposition of the deposits suggests you are talking about the Tertiary period although such deposits are widespread in pre-cambrian environments also. I am thinking here in terms of the reef deposits of South Africa but maybe not who knows.

Just a final point. You stated:

"Even though the discovery of the location of the Peralta mines is very significant, there is a much bigger mystery". Very, Very true.

thanks for posting. A great read.

klondike

cuzzinjack
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Re: Chichilticale

Postby cuzzinjack » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:29 pm

Hello Klondike,

Thank you for your interest and the kind words.

There is little doubt (with me anyway) that Niza knew exactly where he was going before he left Mexico City. As soon as he was shed of Esteban, he got down to business. He found the ancient trail north of the Gila, the mines probably mostly filled in, and his people concealed more with the time they had.

After he met Esteban’s party fleeing south on the most direct route to Mexico City, he also turned south with them to meet the San Pedro River. He was able to find or was told of Chichilticale #2 which is near the Chiricahua Mountains (see above map). Although not the Superstition Mountains, they are very rugged as the tale would have been told, and can be seen from Chichilticale #2. Fr. Niza’s plan to conceal was complete.

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The following year, Niza guided the Coronado expedition to Chichilticale #2. As can be seen in the map above only one day was spent at the other campsites, but 3 days were spent at Chichilticale. 1300 people are not going to stop for one or a few persons having illness or injury. There had to be a special reason to stop for that long that most or all of the party would agree to. Chichilticale. Fr. Niza’s plan had worked.
I believe the Aztecs were the original discoverers of the mines; their advanced civilization could afford to have people studying rocks and geology. The Apaches may have mined them. The northwest end of Superstition mountains was ripe for exploration. Below is a photo of the mineral potential of the Superstitions and surrounding area that was completed by the US Bureau of Mines and the US Geological Survey in 1993. The red areas have high mineral potential. Please note that the northwest end of the mountains has the same potential as Superior/Resolution.

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On the east side of the high mineral potential area, there is a collapse caldera over one mile in diameter. There are some large areas on its perimeter that appear to have been disturbed (pits that have been filled back in). A refraction seismograph was rented twice to test several of them. The results were very positive for 6 different locations.

There are 3 of the results found below. 5000 was the big Kahuna; the entire hillside has been disturbed, and its perimeter is intensely silicified. 2000 turned out very well also. 3000 doesn’t look as good, but the subterranean structures shown are actually rock outcrops on the surface, so the pit is much more pronounced than the tomogram shows.

http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/2000.pdf
http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/3000.pdf
http://mollymarieprospect.com/tomograms/5000.pdf

Below is a photo with the lines above labeled. Each of the geophone lines shown revealed a pit. Some lines did not and are not shown.

Image

My theory is that there were many outcrops when the Goldfield district was discovered by the Aztecs or others, and all of the mines in the Aztec era were open pits. The ore would have been tertiary late-stage high sulphidation ore as found on the Old Wasp claim in 1983 by the highway. As described by John Wilburn:

“The ore shoot was eight feet wide and 50 feet in length. On the east footwall free gold occurred with galena, anglesite, malachite, chrysocolla, hematite, in an extremely heavy ore 12 inches wide that assayed 244 ounces per ton gold and 56 ounces per ton silver.”

I spoke with Mr. Wilburn about this and he said they struck it with a backhoe. 1 million dollars was removed at 1983 prices.

It is believed that the mining progressed from Goldfield to the east portion of the high potential area shown on the USGS/USBM map, and in the final stages of the Peralta era mining was all underground and beneath basalt.

By the time the Anglos came, all of the late stage sulphide outcrops were gone, some being much, much larger than that found at the Old Wasp.

cuzzinjack

Somehiker
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Re: Chichilticale

Postby Somehiker » Sat May 06, 2017 5:00 pm

Some interesting ideas there, Jack.
I see surface and shallow pit mining of gold deposits by native people more or less local to the area as a distinct possibility, though not by the Aztec themselves. It is more likely IMO, that the gold was collected for trade purposes and exchanged for more desirable goods from way down south, ie: copper tinklers, Macaw feathers and cacao beans carried northward via the trade networks. Bartered from trader to trader, gold from the Goldfield/Superstitions area may have thus found it's way into the royal coffers of Tenochtitlan.
There is at least one ruin out there, a "cliff house' likely Salado in origin, which had a layer of red clay applied to it's outer walls. (Chichilticale)
The inner wall, which still shows human fingerprints, is plastered in a white clay. Here's a shot of a part if the outer wall, showing the red clay layer, although the bright sunshine does not allow one to see how dark the red really is in the photo.....

020 red plaster sm.jpg


In regards to the "crusher" rock, I have been to Casa Grande, and my suspicion is that it was used as a temporary means of diverting irrigation water to and from furrows in the fields.

Regards:SH.

Somehiker
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Re: Chichilticale

Postby Somehiker » Sat May 06, 2017 5:09 pm

Somehiker wrote:Some interesting ideas there, Jack.
I see surface and shallow pit mining of gold deposits by native people more or less local to the area as a distinct possibility, though not by the Aztec themselves. It is more likely IMO, that the gold was collected for trade purposes and exchanged for more desirable goods from way down south, ie: copper tinklers, Macaw feathers and cacao beans carried northward via the trade networks. Bartered from trader to trader, gold from the Goldfield/Superstitions area may have thus found it's way into the royal coffers of Tenochtitlan.
There is at least one ruin out there, a "cliff house' likely Salado in origin, which had a thin layer of red clay applied to it's outer walls. (Chichilticale)
The inner wall, which still shows human fingerprints, is plastered in a much thicker layer of white clay. Here's a shot of a part if the outer wall, showing the red clay layer, although the bright sunshine does not allow one to see how dark the red really is in the photo.....

020 red plaster sm.jpg

In regards to the "crusher" rock, I have been to Casa Grande, and my suspicion is that it was used as a temporary means of diverting irrigation water to and from furrows in the fields.

Regards:SH.

klondike
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Re: Chichilticale

Postby klondike » Sun May 07, 2017 11:17 am

Hello Cuzzinjack,

The geology of the Superstition Mountains definitely suggests significant mining efforts were on going at a much earlier time than folks suspect. The numerous caldera complexes in the area, both known and unknown and their various contact points provide opportunity for near surface massive sulfide deposits of precious metals. In addition zones in fractures, faults, and shear zones.

What is generally not recognized but identified in your efforts is that the absent of what were certainly widespread and rich deposits meant they were worked from the area of oxidization to the sulfide zone before mining operations required a more significant effort. This additional effort appeared in recent time when most of the surface deposits were left to fallow sorta speak.

On the Rand massive gold deposits in a quartz conglomerate setting were deposited in what can only described as a fossil placer in an iron rich atmosphere which cause the gold to be precipitated out of solution by living organisms. I mention this as to only suggest that the deposits you were discussing were well massive.

In case of the Superstitions the historical questions must start with an understanding of the geology as you have pointed to. The geology points to a history not the other way around.

As you have suggested this is not about the locals.

Thanks for sharing.

Klondike

cuzzinjack
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Re: Chichilticale

Postby cuzzinjack » Sun May 07, 2017 8:46 pm

Hi Somehiker and Klondike,

It is agreed that the local Apaches did the mining. From what I've read, the Aztecs were a strange and perverse society, not only their leaders, but the common citizens as well. Their economy was built on bartering, they had no metal money, and they prized gold for it's beauty, especially high purity gold! They commonly bartered their own children into slavery or for sacrifice.

It is great to see that their are still people like yourselves that are still interested in the Peralta Mines/Lost Dutchman mystery. The mines were real and there was a much bigger operation here than most realize.

I've been putting together another post for a few days, on electronic paper and in my head, and believe mercury, not gold, is the key to solving this puzzle and have some new information and ideas to share. First Water Canyon was especially beautiful today; the weather was uncommonly cool, and the creek was actually still flowing.

cuzzinjack


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